[23:00:32] [connected at Thu Aug  4 23:00:32 2016]
[23:00:43] [I have joined #xf-bod]
[23:00:43] <danvet> now where's the secretary ...
[23:00:47] <danvet> ah here
[23:00:53] * danvet totally not prepared
[23:01:22] <danvet> agd5f, whot bryce egbert keithp robclark: hi all!
[23:01:34] * whot waves
[23:01:49] <danvet> Agenda: gsoc, evoc, spi transfers, logo usage, xdc
[23:01:53] * danvet copypastes
[23:02:06] <keithp> yup, I'm here
[23:02:29] <danvet> hm, logo usuage we all resolve last time
[23:02:32] * danvet removes that again
[23:02:59] <robclark> o/
[23:03:13] <robclark> whot, rooms devoid of oxygen should be avoided ;-)
[23:03:33] <egbert> hi guys
[23:03:53] <whot> robclark: I shall keep my yawning to a minimum during the meeting
[23:03:58] <robclark> heheh
[23:04:04] <whot> and ensure you guys it's not because I'm bored
[23:06:21] <mupuf> whot: too much partying yesterday?
[23:06:29] <whot> nah, just woke up at 5
[23:07:30] <danvet> agd5f, bryce: around?
[23:07:37] <danvet> agd5f definitely was just a bit ago ...
[23:07:42] <mupuf> that should be forbiden, 5am is a good time to go to sleep, not to wake up
[23:08:00] <danvet> whot's down under, maybe that works differently there
[23:08:55] <danvet> anyway, let's get started
[23:08:58] <danvet> mupuf, gsoc?
[23:09:17] <robclark> mupuf, living in EU working w/ folks in US, you get the better deal when it comes to sleep patterns ;-)
[23:09:23] <mupuf> danvet: all smooth, nothing to talk about
[23:09:32] <mupuf> robclark: ;)
[23:10:09] <danvet> excellent
[23:10:15] <danvet> yeah, evoc&robclark
[23:10:27] <danvet> we both have the internship request pending
[23:10:44] <danvet> and we have a hung vote from last time around about whether evoc is supposed to be full time or not always
[23:10:55] <danvet> robclark, updates on your potential intern?
[23:11:24] <robclark> well, wasn't actually my potential intern that we were discussing, but yeah..
[23:11:26] <whot> danvet: fwiw, as the secretary your vote counts twice in case of hung votes
[23:11:48] <robclark> for my intern, varad is making progress, but he is graduated by now so there wasn't the full-time debate..
[23:11:50] <danvet> whot, we where running low on people ;-)
[23:11:55] <whot> oh, right :)
[23:12:01] <danvet> *were
[23:12:28] <danvet> and I figured this not a good topic to push really, it's better to have the discussion than just force a decision really
[23:12:44] <robclark> for Gurkirpal, there doesn't seem to be a good point in the year for full-time couple month project.. although he thinks he has bandwidth to work during classes..
[23:12:58] <danvet> robclark,well minutes says you'll follow up
[23:13:11] <danvet> ah ok
[23:13:21] <robclark> yup, I think the board was cc'd..
[23:13:35] <keithp> yeah, doesn't sound compatible with the gsoc-model which evoc attempts to emulate
[23:13:45] <danvet> ah right
[23:13:52] <robclark> but anyways, maybe we should think about other options.. I had the idea a couple minutes ago (not fully thought out) of a bounty program..
[23:13:57] <agd5f> whoops, didnt' realize the time
[23:14:06] <robclark> ie. more open-ended timeline, but pay-on-delivery..
[23:14:07] <danvet> yeah, personally I'd need more sleep than that to get anything done
[23:14:14] <danvet> agd5f, I'll move you to attendees
[23:14:24] <keithp> robclark: yeah, was wondering if that might work
[23:14:40] <robclark> (possibly modulo a small upfront payment if there is need to purchase hardware or something.. idk.. like I said I haven't really thought it through yet)
[23:15:09] <robclark> but with that sort of scheme, someone could work whenever they have time, and if they are busy during exams or whatever and can't work for a few weeks, no biggie..
[23:15:15] <keithp> robclark: need to brainstorm about how to align the available time with work to be done
[23:15:29] <robclark> and if it doesn't work out, then no payment, so no harm done
[23:15:39] <keithp> the whole point of evoc was to provide funds for concentrated full-time work in lieu of macas
[23:16:17] <robclark> yeah, I think in this case, full-time is maybe not a good option, but something that lets him work in parts of the semester and breaks when things aren't so hectic might work
[23:16:26] <egbert> yes, pretty much to free up time that would have to be used to work for living etc.
[23:16:32] <robclark> right
[23:16:35] <danvet> so two weeks ago when we discussed this, the vote was keithp, mupuf, egbert & me in favour of just making evoc near-fulltime, like the wiki says currently
[23:16:53] <mupuf> I still think this is the right thing to do
[23:16:55] * danvet took a while to dig out the irclog
[23:16:55] <keithp> danvet: I still vote that way.
[23:17:07] <robclark> yeah, the bounty program would be something different somehow..  ie. leave EVoC as a full-time but time-bounded thing
[23:17:12] <keithp> I'd love for robclark to figure out a way to make something work, but it's not evoc
[23:17:14] <mupuf> otherwise, it is too much work on the mentor and a lot of stress on the student
[23:17:18] <robclark> right
[23:17:24] <danvet> keithp, ah yeah, that makes sense
[23:17:48] <mupuf> robclark: we said before we would never propose a bounty program
[23:17:58] <robclark> hmm, no?
[23:18:02] <mupuf> because it is not the role of the X.Org foundation
[23:18:09] * robclark doesn't remember..
[23:18:11] <mupuf> what we aim for is to get people to collaborate
[23:18:13] <keithp> mupuf: yeah, this wouldn't be a 'bounty' program, more like 'really really short student projects'
[23:18:23] <agd5f> near-fulltime seems like a good requirement.  I'd like to support part time projects, but I think we probably need a different program for that.
[23:18:34] <egbert> classical boutny programs are there to get a job done that noone wants to pick up
[23:18:40] <danvet> I'm not sure really really short student projects achieve collaboration
[23:18:55] <danvet> at least if the goal is to have some folks stick around for longer, maybe even get hired eventually
[23:19:00] <keithp> danvet: keep someone engaged with the community while at school seems like a good goal
[23:19:20] <danvet> even gsoc seems short enough that some folks immediately disappear again afterwards
[23:19:21] <mupuf> yeah, I see how it could help
[23:19:28] <danvet> keithp, good point
[23:19:31] <mupuf> GSoC is really short already
[23:19:45] <keithp> mupuf: gsoc is pretty much a free software internship
[23:19:46] <robclark> mupuf, well, I think "bounty" or whatever we call it (maybe "bounty" isn't the best name) would still be aimed at students and bringing in new contributers.. but just more flexible on timeline and payment at the end so there isn't pressure to finish in a certain timeframe which might interfere with studies..
[23:20:02] <mupuf> well, how about this then: a year long program?
[23:20:24] <danvet> I wonder about all the bugs we'll discover while developing such a program
[23:20:28] <keithp> robclark: I think what could work is to negotiate an area of work for the student, then a set of small projects to work on. That seems like a huge admin burden though.
[23:20:32] <mupuf> and the student would say in advance when he plans on working in advance
[23:20:39] <keithp> mupuf: yeah, definitely
[23:20:40] <mupuf> and if the student drops, we stop the funding
[23:20:40] <agd5f> CYOC (Community Year of Code)
[23:20:40] <robclark> yeah, something like that might work..  I'm mostly just tossing out ideas and brainstorming
[23:20:47] <danvet> the nice thing with evoc is that it's mostly just gsoc copypasted, without the restriction on when exactly it needs to happen
[23:21:02] <mupuf> danvet: yeah, but it only helped one person in the end ;D
[23:21:07] <egbert> but for a lot of these things - does this really require to involve money?
[23:21:13] <keithp> robclark: we might chat with the outreachy folks and see if they have any ideas too?
[23:21:18] <danvet> mupuf, I thought we had more evocs than just one?
[23:21:22] <robclark> that is a pretty good idea
[23:21:29] <mupuf> egbert: well, students need some money
[23:21:35] <egbert> i understand why this si done for evoc and gsoc.
[23:21:39] <mupuf> danvet: one out of the typical summer period
[23:21:40] <mupuf> d
[23:21:56] <keithp> egbert: yeah, the idea would be to replace some work-study hours with free software community engagement
[23:21:59] <danvet> mupuf, hm ok ...
[23:22:01] <robclark> well, I know some folks involved w/ outreachy at RH.. so I can bounce some ideas off of them
[23:22:01] <egbert> right. but for any small program? what about the students who just become involved without money?
[23:22:27] <keithp> egbert: good point; competing with students who work 'for free' is not ideal
[23:22:32] <mupuf> egbert: the foundation does not need to be involved then, there is nothing different from a typical project
[23:22:38] <mupuf> aside from maybe us advertising
[23:22:46] <mupuf> but it is not like we have good channels for this :D
[23:22:49] <keithp> mupuf: other than discouraging people from working when they aren't being paid
[23:22:55] <danvet> otoh expecting everyone to be able to have free time instead of having to work is also not that awesome ...
[23:22:59] <egbert> keithp: right
[23:23:33] <danvet> for a small value of everyone ;-)
[23:23:49] <mupuf> there are many pitfalls with what I proposed
[23:24:03] <mupuf> but this could be an acceptable way to get people more actively engaged
[23:24:14] <danvet> yeah I agree with keithp, admin overhead could also be big
[23:24:15] <mupuf> but it cannot be considered employment
[23:24:20] <mupuf> that's the main issue here
[23:24:58] <egbert> paying to get people more actively involved might be a slippery slope.
[23:25:18] <danvet> so would someone volunteer to look into this a bit? maybe ping outreachy and other places whether there's an option that other projects figured out works?
[23:25:18] <egbert> i don't want to create the expaction that people get paid for involvement.
[23:25:30] <robclark> well, it is mostly paying people so they free up their time from meaningless jobs to do something useful..
[23:25:32] <mupuf> egbert: agreed
[23:25:34] <danvet> I think we're probably too small to try out something entirely new ...
[23:25:49] <egbert> danvet: right. 
[23:25:58] * robclark can try to summarize ideas and reach out to outreachy
[23:26:04] <egbert> we are struggling with how it is atm already.
[23:26:09] <mupuf> danvet: it is not like we are going to crawl under demands :D
[23:26:15] <mupuf> so we are the right size to try it out :D
[23:26:47] <danvet> mupuf, but we're also pretty good at making a mess out of small admin issues ;-)
[23:26:48] <keithp> mupuf: I think we need help figuring out how it might work, but otherwise, yes, we are a good place to try something that other's may want to emulate
[23:27:03] <keithp> danvet: only sending money abroad...
[23:28:49] <mupuf> we need to get SPI involved though
[23:28:53] <mupuf> they will love us for this :D
[23:30:32] <danvet> ok, so someone volunteering to look into this some more? mupuf/robclark?
[23:30:45] * robclark already volunteered ;-)
[23:30:52] <robclark> * robclark can try to summarize ideas and reach out to outreachy
[23:30:57] <danvet> oh geez, totally missed that ;-)
[23:30:59] <mupuf> great! because I want to concentrate on XDC :)
[23:31:11] <robclark> yeah, I guess mupuf has enough on his plate
[23:32:02] <danvet> awesome, thx a lot
[23:32:06] * danvet just typed notes
[23:32:10] <robclark> np
[23:32:36] <danvet> spi transfers is next
[23:32:47] <danvet> bryce seems not around, so we'll postpone
[23:33:03] <danvet> also, I've reached new records in procrastinating on that doc :(
[23:33:11] <danvet> ofc official excuse is bryce isn't around
[23:33:20] <danvet> so xdc
[23:33:26] <danvet> mupuf, all going well?
[23:34:17] <mupuf> so far so good, everyone is on vacation
[23:34:33] <mupuf> but I need to think about the social event
[23:34:44] <mupuf> and I will need to send a reminder next week for the CFP
[23:34:50] <mupuf> deadline is on the 17th
[23:35:11] <mupuf> then, I will have a few days to review the proposals with the help of whoever wants to help
[23:35:46] <danvet>  I guess we'll keep accepting late ones until all the slots are full, like usual?
[23:35:55] <agd5f> seems reasonable
[23:35:57] <danvet> just not formally submitted&accepted, as usual
[23:36:03] <mupuf> danvet: of course
[23:36:13] <danvet> and yeah I can help play paper committee if you ping me
[23:36:19] <danvet> same tz makes that faster
[23:36:32] <mupuf> the idea with the formal acceptance is to notify people that their talk is accepted and they should prepare for it.
[23:36:40] <mupuf> and they can get final funding too
[23:36:53] <mupuf> I got some visa questions from russian citizens
[23:37:11] <mupuf> one was going to 3 conferences and got a work visa thanks to another conf (yeepee)
[23:37:21] <mupuf> the attendees list for XDC was enough
[23:37:45] <robclark> hmm, didn't we decide last year that we need some formal invite letter for folks who need visa's?
[23:37:46] <danvet> yeah I guess for visa it needs to look somewhat formal
[23:38:03] <danvet> robclark, we simply added it as a consideration to the XDC RFP wiki page
[23:38:05] <robclark> (although if we can get invite letter from intel, that is probably better..  last year it took a bit and forth)
[23:38:15] <danvet> "find an org which can create official invite letters"
[23:38:25] <danvet> I expect intel or the university could do that
[23:38:32] <egbert> danvet: right.
[23:38:43] <danvet> mupuf, so nothing we need to help out with?
[23:39:12] <mupuf> danvet: nothing
[23:39:15] <egbert> danvet: i'm not sure if it will be accepted from xorg. due to the fact that it there is some financial burdeon it is hard to hold xorg liable.
[23:39:27] <mupuf> the other one is a student who will come using a tourist visa. It is a free conference anyway
[23:39:39] <danvet> egbert, yeah, that's why we added it the frp page, we can't do this
[23:39:39] <mupuf> and definitely not work-related for him ... since he is a student
[23:39:47] <danvet> also we're not a legal entity who's local
[23:39:57] <danvet> can't invite if your not there ;-)
[23:39:58] <egbert> danvet: exactly.
[23:40:20] <danvet> mupuf, sight-seeing the local X hackers ;-)
[23:40:21] <robclark> right, I think at least when XDC is hosted by a company that one of us (or member of xorg community work for), trying to get invite letter via host corp is best way
[23:40:33] <danvet> ok, so xdc17
[23:40:42] <danvet> we have the proposal from marcheu/google
[23:40:56] <danvet> and I think agd5f & robclark are still looking into some ideas
[23:41:13] <danvet> I'd propose we set a deadline of xdc helsinki so that we can vote there?
[23:41:22] <agd5f> danvet, sounds good
[23:41:26] <robclark> for me, it basically comes down to how soon the timeline for opening downtown BOS office is solidified..
[23:41:38] <egbert> we are getting very professional!
[23:41:43] <robclark> yeah, deadline of xdc wfm.. if I don't know by then I'll punt until next time around
[23:41:56] <agd5f> I'm still waiting for some feedback from the University
[23:42:09] <danvet> egbert, I'm compensating with my procrastination on the spi transfer letter ;-)
[23:42:34] <egbert> danvet: :)
[23:43:19] <danvet> no objections to that?
[23:43:32] <robclark> +1 (no objection)
[23:43:35] <danvet> I haven't heard of anyone else thinking about hosting xdc17 at least
[23:43:40] <agd5f> +1
[23:43:42] <mupuf> +1
[23:43:44] <egbert> +1
[23:43:50] <danvet> so when agd5f & robclark are fine I think we're good
[23:43:53] <danvet> +1
[23:44:05] <whot> +1 voting for a deadline to vote for a proprosal 
[23:44:07] <whot> :)
[23:44:07] <mupuf> 3 proposals, this would be luxury!
[23:44:20] <robclark> heheh
[23:44:21] <danvet> overkill probably
[23:44:30] <danvet> will take us 6 years to run them down ;-)
[23:44:50] <egbert> if was hard with 2 for 15 already 
[23:45:49] <danvet> also need to take in any questions before xdc helsinki, so please reply to the proposal(s)
[23:46:06] <danvet> mupuf already asked all the bits I wanted to know for mountain view
[23:46:25] <mupuf> yeah, or be available for questions during the XDC meetging
[23:46:49] <danvet> shouldn't be a problem if we do it in the afternoon
[23:47:09] <danvet> anything else or all looking good?
[23:47:28] <robclark> nothing from my end
[23:47:45] <egbert> looks like we are good
[23:49:12] <egbert> ok, looks like ... good night!
[23:49:22] <whot> nothing from me
[23:49:48] <robclark> k, gn and good luck :-P

[23:50:33] [disconnected at Thu Aug 4 23:50:33 2016]