[22:53:39] [connected at Thu Jun  9 22:53:39 2016]
[22:53:50] [I have joined #xf-bod]
[22:56:19] <robclark_> danvet, slacking on mtg reminders?  :-P
[22:56:23] robclark_ is now known as robclark
[22:56:37] <mupuf> hey guys!
[22:56:37] <whot> morning
[22:59:48] <marcoz> HI guys. I'm lurking for the EVoC proposal.
[22:59:50] <danvet> robclark, well trained board I'd say ;-)
[22:59:57] <egbert> hi  guys!
[23:00:15] <agd5f> howdy
[23:00:59] <danvet> Agenda: gsoc, xdc, x.org, spi, evoc
[23:01:02] <robclark> o/
[23:01:07] <robclark> mesa?
[23:01:11] <danvet> marcoz, thx for reminding
[23:01:15] <danvet> hm yeah
[23:01:25] <marcoz> danvet, np.  
[23:01:32] <danvet> bryce, stukreit, keithp around?
[23:05:51] <danvet> well I guess we can get started
[23:05:54] <danvet> egbert, x.org update?
[23:08:35] <egbert> danvet, not atm. and i don't think anything will happen the next 3 weeks as i will be travelling a lot
[23:08:47] <danvet> ok
[23:08:54] <danvet> I'll keep pestering you ;-)
[23:09:10] <danvet> marcoz, robclark evoc? can/should we make a decision already?
[23:09:49] <robclark> for varad's msaa proposal, I vote +1
[23:10:14] <robclark> I think it is a reasonable project, and it would be nice to finally have non-fake msaa ;-)
[23:11:48] <marcoz> also, he had a gsoc project that concluded successfully, so it doesn't sound like he's a flight risk.
[23:12:17] <danvet> I can't find the mail any more ...
[23:13:29] <agd5f> looks good to me.  +1
[23:13:47] <mupuf> +1 for me too
[23:13:50] <danvet> robclark, you're signed up as mentor?
[23:14:08] <robclark> marcoz, yeah, he had one GSoC w/ us last year, and before that another GSoC..
[23:14:10] * danvet found mail again, was mislabelled
[23:14:22] <robclark> danvet, sure, I can be mentor..
[23:14:41] <danvet> can or do?
[23:15:06] <robclark> ??
[23:15:23] <danvet> or English fail, but we need a mentor ...
[23:15:32] <robclark> anyways, put me down as mentor.. ;-)
[23:15:35] <danvet> it sounded like maybe you can mentor ...
[23:15:37] <danvet> ah ok
[23:15:38] <danvet> +1
[23:15:43] <danvet> egbert, whot?
[23:15:48] <egbert> +1
[23:15:51] <whot> wfm, +1
[23:15:59] <danvet> and carries
[23:16:50] <danvet> mupuf, gsoc?
[23:16:50] <marcoz> what dollar amount ?
[23:16:51] <stukreit> hi (sorry I'm late)
[23:17:01] <danvet> marcoz, I thought that one is fixed?
[23:17:01] <mupuf> danvet: not much to say
[23:17:13] <mupuf> agd5f: news from idr?
[23:17:19] <bryce> hi
[23:17:28] <mupuf> GSoC's midterm is at the end of the month
[23:17:35] <danvet> and I hope banking in india is reasonable ...
[23:17:39] <danvet> otoh spi's problem ;-)
[23:17:40] <agd5f> haven't heard back from idr, but the student updated me on his status
[23:17:41] <marcoz> danvet, you are correct. it's the amount listed on the wiki.
[23:17:48] <marcoz> i'm just being pedantic
[23:17:59] <bryce> +1 from me on the gsoc project too
[23:18:24] <bryce> er, s/gsoc/evoc/
[23:19:03] <bryce> btw, on the topic of fixed payments for evoc, I'll interject I was examining what we promise to pay on the website
[23:19:08] <stukreit> danvet:  have we accepted an evoc student in india?  Did anyone inquire/vet the ability to pay them? e.g. confirm that they have a bank acct in their own name?
[23:19:30] <agd5f> we should require that he has a real back account
[23:19:35] <agd5f> *bank
[23:19:37] <danvet> marcoz, can't find the numbers right now where are they
[23:19:40] <bryce> $5-6k for 3-4 months work "near-full time" - works out to $8-17/hr, which might be sub-minimum wage in some locations
[23:19:43] <danvet> stukreit, yeah forgot about that
[23:19:50] <marcoz> 500,  2250, 2250
[23:19:54] <marcoz> danvet, 
[23:20:07] <bryce> we may want to revisit payment amounts at some point, and for now maybe adjust the evoc page to not list exact amounts
[23:20:10] <stukreit> I recommend someone take that AI up asap.
[23:20:47] <danvet> yeah, probably better we make that clear
[23:20:56] <bryce> stukreit, I can take that AI.
[23:21:03] <danvet> bryce, thx
[23:21:14] <stukreit> Also, is there documented proof that this person is a currently enrolled student?
[23:21:17] <bryce> I was reviewing how SPI does payments in other countries, they list about half a dozen but I don't remember if India was one
[23:21:34] <robclark> stukreit, fwiw he has done a couple GSoC's previously..
[23:21:58] <stukreit> But is he a student presently?
[23:22:06] <bryce> robclark, so then there's a chance he's graduated ;-)
[23:22:10] <robclark> I think the only documentation on enrollment is his claim in the EVoC application..
[23:22:34] <robclark> but we can ask for some proof of enrollment or something..
[23:22:35] <egbert> did we ever require such a proof?
[23:22:39] <danvet> bryce, might be best in one go ...
[23:22:44] <danvet> egbert, no idea
[23:22:44] <stukreit> These 2 issues should have been "lessons learned" from the latest experience
[23:22:44] <robclark> (not sure what we have done in past)
[23:22:55] <danvet> stukreit, I think we didn't document those ...
[23:23:07] <danvet> well we did, I didn't read it
[23:23:18] <robclark> anyways, varad isn't an unknown character, was my main point in mentioning the GSoC's..
[23:23:34] <danvet> marcoz, can you pls clarify the amount in the wiki and just fix it to what you said?
[23:23:42] <marcoz> danvet, yes
[23:23:48] <danvet> marcoz, thx
[23:24:01] <bryce> stukreit, very good point.  There's some other "questions we shouldn't have to ask" like "do you have internet connection" and "do you actually have time availability (no other jobs/classes that will interfere)"
[23:24:49] <stukreit> I'm no stranger to making mistakes, but I strongly encourage these checks before accepting an evoc. How long ago was this person accepted? 
[23:24:57] <danvet> 5 minutes
[23:25:47] <stukreit> Also: GSOC has a forum discussion where lots of these personnel issues come out and are discussed.  I think we need a separate discussion beyond this meeting to hash some of this stuff out.
[23:26:06] <danvet> bryce, ok if you check the enrollment too? simpler in one mail ...
[23:26:16] <egbert> regarding the time and classes issue:
[23:26:44] <egbert> we should better ask when people have a period of 3 month without classes.
[23:26:48] <stukreit> In all humility, I'm no stranger to making procedural mistakes, but the last one was an 11 month long headache and I don't want myself or another to repeat any part of it.
[23:27:02] <egbert> point is: semester terms vary greatly between locations.
[23:27:28] <stukreit> Not just ask their schedule, but insist that we expect that this is the only project or job they have during this time.
[23:27:29] <egbert> gsoc dates don't work well here as they are intersecting with class.
[23:28:02] <bryce> danvet, ok
[23:28:07] <egbert> stukreit: at least would be able to spend 8h 5d/week
[23:28:57] <danvet> bryce, robclark added all of stukreit's point to your action ;-)
[23:29:09] <bryce> I've gone down that road stukreit describes with gsoc so definitely agree that spelling things out explicitly can help avoid troubles down the road
[23:29:09] <danvet> and maybe evoc confirmation conditional on that
[23:29:15] <stukreit> well, its hard to delegate time, maybe that 8x5 is a suggestion. More to the point, that they should not take on other committments for the duration.
[23:29:21] <danvet> looking at the wiki it's all spelled out
[23:29:25] <danvet> we just suck at procedure
[23:29:57] <bryce> danvet, heh, how'd I walk into all this :-)  No prob though, I can help with solidifying some of these bits, I've had to do similar in other projects
[23:30:09] <stukreit> danvet: It can be on the wiki, but a conversation online or by voice with the student where these things are said out loud has a different kind of impact.
[23:30:46] <robclark> danvet, did you want me or bryce to replay on varad's application email thread?
[23:31:10] <danvet> robclark, yes pls
[23:31:30] <danvet> so anything else we've failed at with evoc?
[23:31:42] <robclark> ok, bryce, I can reply then..
[23:31:48] <bryce> danvet, I'll stick to just nailing bits down in the wiki, and leave interfacing with the student(s) to others
[23:31:53] <danvet> maybe we should just read the requirements page next time around first ;-)
[23:31:53] <marcoz> stukreit, I take full responsibility for the last debacle.  I (foolishly) assumed that since he was a gsoc student last year from india that the banking part would not be an issue nor the student part.
[23:32:04] <robclark> bryce, ok, sounds good.. let me know when wiki is updated
[23:32:23] <danvet> bryce, double-checking that we can pay him through spi would be good
[23:32:24] <stukreit> marcoz: don't paint your own bullseye.  
[23:32:31] <bryce> danvet, a checklist for the mentor to use when initially interviewing the student would probably go a long way to helping catch issues
[23:32:42] <stukreit> bryce: +1
[23:33:11] <bryce> I'll craft something to start with and let rob know via the mailing list.
[23:33:14] <danvet> https://www.x.org/wiki/XorgEVoC/ the wiki page fwiw
[23:33:35] <danvet> ime better not to make too many subpages, can't find them ;-)
[23:33:43] <bryce> danvet, ok
[23:33:45] <stukreit> danvet: I would not characterize these as evoc fails.  We have made whole all our committments. It just took hella long.
[23:34:07] <danvet> stukreit, oh I meant the negligence today
[23:34:15] <danvet> stukreit, and thx a lot for waking us up ;-)
[23:34:43] <robclark> so I suppose we can say that EVoC is tentatively approved pending confirmation of all the requirements (which I kinda assumed was implicit anyways)?
[23:34:59] <danvet> robclark, yup, that's what I'm putting into mtg minutes
[23:35:06] <robclark> ok, sounds good
[23:35:09] <agd5f> sounds good
[23:35:36] <danvet> mupuf, gsoc?
[23:36:07] <marcoz> bryce, if you're updating the wiki page anyway, can you add the 3 evoc payments amts on there too?  i seem to have forgotten my password again
[23:36:22] <bryce> marcoz, ok can do
[23:36:25] <stukreit> robclark: yes, its really good to use the words "tentative approval" or "provisional" to allow some space as we see now.
[23:36:36] <marcoz> bryce, thx
[23:36:38] <mupuf> danvet: we already went through it
[23:37:14] <danvet> I didn't see a reply to your question to agd5f 
[23:37:15] <bryce> 500,  2250, 2250
[23:37:22] <danvet> I thought that was in the context of gsoc ...
[23:37:32] <mupuf> danvet: he said that he did not hear from idr, but he heard from the student
[23:38:09] <danvet> oh missed that
[23:38:14] <bryce> again though, I think maybe we need to revisit our payment scheme.  I know gsoc gives a flat payment amount, but different geographic locations have widely varying cost of living (and even minimum wages), so by setting a fixed amount we may be severely limiting the program geographically
[23:38:17] <agd5f> danvet, yeah, the student says he is a little behind due to exams but feels he is still on track
[23:38:24] <stukreit> bryce: remind me to hand over the emails and logins wrt. collecting mentor fees from GSOC.
[23:39:16] <danvet> bryce, haven't yet seen another open source intern program that does ...
[23:39:21] <danvet> opw is the same afaik
[23:39:36] <danvet> could even say the bias is intentional ;-)
[23:39:49] <whot> this came up on the gsoc list a year back or so and the summary they had was: organising effort to equalise this is too high
[23:40:13] <danvet> I guess next up is spi
[23:40:17] <danvet> stukreit, I'll note that
[23:41:06] <danvet> bryce, stukreit I wonder whether we should transfer half of the money already, to be able to pay stuff through spi
[23:41:26] <bryce> danvet, not a bad idea.
[23:41:32] <danvet> since terminating the delware will probably take a notch longer
[23:41:35] <stukreit> interesting idea. 
[23:42:15] <stukreit> SPI is on the virge of providing wire transfer ID's.
[23:42:45] <bryce> yeah I'm still fuzzy on exactly what the minimum necessary requirements are to get the banking end of things fired up.
[23:43:01] <bryce> I'm hoping it isn't going to require the dissolution first; that sounds like it'll be a lot of work
[23:43:35] <stukreit> bryce: isnt this timing something that SPI should explain to us?
[23:43:57] <bryce> stukreit, indeed; I asked but haven't gotten a reply yet
[23:46:02] <bryce> stukreit, one thing they mentioned was that we need to note the last day of business on X.org's final income tax return.  Will that be 2015's or are we going to need to file one for 2016 as well?
[23:46:50] <stukreit> again, perhaps they have an accounting/tax expert. 
[23:46:56] <robclark> I think payment for last EVoC ended up being made this year, so I assume 2016..
[23:46:59] <danvet> we only officially disolved (earliest) when the member vote happened
[23:47:02] <danvet> which is 2016
[23:47:07] <robclark> true
[23:47:12] <danvet> robclark, that too
[23:47:23] <danvet> stukreit, bryce so should we wait&see another 2 weeks?
[23:47:31] <danvet> also pending reply from mishi for my questions ...
[23:48:57] <stukreit> FYI I have a momentous thing to report: I filed the irs 990N "epostcard irs statement" for 2015.  I was hung up on this since May due to lack of Employer ID number.  I finally dug it out of a document after recovering it from my dead mac pro.
[23:49:42] <stukreit> So fyi, the 990 is for orgs taking in < $50k and does not ask for any dollar amounts of anything.  Its basically a PING of the ID numbers
[23:50:25] <stukreit> I also called their hotline and verified that the form is accepted and our obligations for reporting are met.
[23:50:44] <bryce> danvet, maybe worth boiling down some of mishi's email into tasks.  Some of those sound like they could take some time to do, but maybe can be done in parallel.
[23:50:50] <stukreit> This concludes one of the biggest headaches I've had on this job.
[23:51:03] <robclark> \o/
[23:51:04] <danvet> stukreit, thx a lot
[23:51:24] <danvet> bryce, first step is confirming whether the decision we made is good enough
[23:51:44] <bryce> danvet, that would certainly save a huge amount of effort if so
[23:51:53] <danvet> then filing with delaware and IRS, and might be better you and stukreit make sure you understand things ...
[23:52:45] <danvet> bryce, I think we decided correctly, the question is what a layer means with "document properly"
[23:52:51] <danvet> ;-)
[23:53:13] <danvet> anyway I guess some minor bits that we'll keep chasing, but no big decisions yet
[23:53:18] <danvet> anything else?
[23:53:24] <danvet> hm mesa
[23:53:28] <danvet> robclark, can you figure this out pls?
[23:53:43] <robclark> sure..
[23:53:44] <danvet> thx
[23:53:52] <danvet> I think you're the most mesa person we have here ;-)
[23:54:29] <robclark> I don't think there is too much to say..  but IMO brianp should be involved in the discussion, and I think we want some legal advise first, then setup a meeting w/ khronos..
[23:54:58] * mupuf was surprised that Brian was not comfortable talking for mesa. I guess a discussion on the ML will bne needed
[23:55:10] <mupuf> but glad to see SPI is ready to try stuff out
[23:56:17] <bryce> beyond mesa, would it be worthwhile to try to similarly firm up the formalities for the other projects we claim?  (DRI, Wayland, ...)
[23:56:50] <whot> yes, because I don't want to have this discussion again
[23:56:57] <robclark> I think when it comes to signing legal documents, yes..  otherwise I suppose less important..
[23:57:24] <whot> but that also means we need to spell out what it is that we actually do, which admittedly is not much
[23:57:41] <bryce> robclark, trademark holding sometimes also fits with this
[23:58:29] <danvet> whot, xdc, iternships and entertainment for phoronix
[23:58:30] <bryce> whot, well like robclark says there's legality provisions we can provide, that are valuable.  Money processing is also a valuable service often times.
[23:59:14] <danvet> also given how well run x.org is I don't think any of mesa or other parts of the open gfx driver community could run a foundation
[23:59:17] <danvet> even as part of spi

[23:59:46] [disconnected at Thu Jun 9 23:59:46 2016]